Pioneer Christian Monthly - September, 1995

What Happens When The Church Refuses To Take Its Teaching Seriously?
Ken Ramsay

I have been asked to write a brief article on the topic of "doctrinal integrity." One of the reasons has to do with my United Church background. After having grown up in that communion I found myself, some five years ago, having to leave as a matter of conscience. The teachings of the United Church had departed radically from the "faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints" (Jude 3). Doctrinal integrity had been lost.

It happened over time. It took sixty or seventy years. It went bit by bit, decision by decision, one small step at a time. But as soon as that denomination had decided that the doctrines of the church, or to put it more simply, the teachings of the Bible, were not a high priority, the results were certain. As soon as it was decided that so called "faithful living" was what really mattered, that "life" and not dry old doctrine was the focal point of the church, ruin was inevitable. The results are appalling. And they will be as disastrous for any church that follows the same path.

Some of you may be asking, "Are things really all that bad? Can a disgruntled former United Church pastor be expected to have less than a jaundiced view of the communion he left with tears of sorrow?" You do not need to listen to what I have to say about this matter. Instead, listen to the voice of Peter Youngren, pastor of the Word of Life Church in St Catharines, Ontario as he interviews Dr. Gwyn Griffith who, at the time, was acting ecumenical officer of the United Church of Canada. The interview was carried in the spring 1995 issue of Dominion Magazine, of which Youngren is Editor-in-Chief.

Christianity in question: Peter Youngren interviews Gwyn Griffith

Evangelist Peter Youngren of St. Catharines asked for an interview with UCC Moderator Marion Best, but was referred to Dr. Gwyn Griffith, acting ecumenical officer at the time. Youngren wanted to delineate the state of current Protestantism. Griffith received Youngren with an open and kind attitude and the interview was conducted in a relaxed atmosphere. Yet Youngren was shocked by Griffitifs views. We think vou will be as well. Dr. Peter Wvatt, the new Secretary for Theology, Faith, and Ecumenism, has stated that the interview was "accurate although abbreviated." This interview is reprinted from Dominion Magazine, Spring 1995, with permission.

PY- The United Church is the largest Protestant denomination in Canada. How do you feel about the term 'Protestant?" Is the United Church protesting? If so, what?

GG.- Well, of course the name comes from way back in the 16th century when Luther and others protested against the Catholic church, and the upholding of scripture over tradition in what guides our life. I don't think that the United Church of Canada thinks about that term as relating to protesting now. Now we are more concerned about social justice issues. We might be protesting against injustice.

PY. A few years ago, the United Church apologized to the native community for having changed their spirituality from native religion to Christianity. Is that true?

GG: Yes. It was in the 1986 General Council. I think part of the reason was for them not taking their own spirituality seriously. It was not apologizing for sharing Christianity with them, but very much the way in which it was done, taking away their own spirituality and imposing Christianity.

I think that what we are saying now is that we are learning from their traditions and their spirituality, as we also share faith with them.

PY- Let me put the question in an even more direct manner. In John 14:6 Jesus said, 'I am the way, the truth and the life". He uses the definitive "the". Does the United Church believe that this statement is applicable to all people? Or do you think that salvation could be obtained through means other than through Jesus Christ?

GG. Well, we are right in the midst of a study on ecumenism. Part of the study deals with that particular verse. There will be a new document based on the responses we get from our congregations. One of the things that we say is that God's way, truth and life are not limited to Jesus. This particular passage expresses the reality that Jesus is the greatest revealer of God only for those who respond to His call. However, it would not be true to Jesus to exclude everyone but Himself and His followers from the saving activity of God.

PY- So you believe that North American natives could be saved and would gain eternal life through their own tribal religion?

GG. Yes, I believe they would. I think they can reach God however they understand a relationship with God. I also believe that missionaries contributed great gifts to people and that these people have been enriched by the Christian faith. But they also value their own spiritual traditions. Christianity and native religion are not mutually exclusive.

PY- Obviously you are familiar with the term "born again" and Jesus' oft-quoted statement, "Except ye be born again, you cannot see the kingdom of God". What does being "born again" mean to you?

GG. I believe that there is an experience of re-birth, which means newness in one's life which can be experienced and expressed in a wide variety of ways. There is a way in which we are constantly being called to be re-born, to follow Jesus Christ, and to answer God's call as we move through life.

PY- Do you believe that Jesus Christ is an absolute must for a born-again experience to take place?

GG.- No, I don't think so. I think that being born again through Jesus is a unique experience, but I don't think that is the only way.

PY- Do you believe that someone can be born again through Mohammed or through Hindu gods like Ramah or Vishnu?

GG. Yes, I would think so.

PY- Do you believe that Jesus Christ was born of a virgin, physically resurrected, and is alive today?

GG.- Some do in the United Church...

PY- I'm speaking to you as a spokesperson for the Council of the United Church.

GG.- We've not made a statement on that. Our Theology and Faith Committee are working towards a document on what we understand that saving significance of Jesus Christ is today. Many in our church would say that the virgin birth is not a necessary part of our faith. A human birth is equally miraculous and equally able to bring 'salvation."

PY- So you don't see it as a denial of the Bible to deny the 'virgin birth"?

GG. No. I don't think that there is a problem, whatever people believe in relation to the virgin birth. We are just now in a process of trying to look at a new statement of who we believe Jesus Christ is for us.

PY- How would you describe the Bible? Is it, in its entirety, God's infallible and inspired Word?

GG: We believe that the word of God is larger than the text of the Bible. We do not believe in the literal interpretation of every word, but we have six convictions of how God has called us to engage the Bible. We believe that every reading of the Bible is an interpretation of the words, and what helps us to understand is the community and culture we live in.

PY- So you believe a Hindu could find eternal salvation, just like a Christian, through praying to one of the Hindu gods, or by being devoted to that path of life?

GG.- Yes, I think so. This is what we are looking at in this ecumenism document. For us, as Christians, the way is through Christ, but others may find it in other ways.

PY- What about salvation through the Muslim teaching, or, for example, the Zoroastrian teaching.?

GG. Yes, we have to respect that, and we want to dialogue with that. We are open to learning from them as we hope they will learn from us.

PY- Missions is to convert people to faith in Christ as their only hope of eternal life. How do you view world missions?

GG: Certainly, we believe that we need to share with others our understanding of God. Much of our work now is working with partner churches in other parts of the world, sharing with them what their emphasis is. It is not up to us to say that everyone outside the Christian faith is damned and has no access to God. Our mission work is certainly to share how we understand the gospel, but also to work with those of other religions in trying to help creation, the earth, and a concern for other human beings.

PY. What do you think is the greatest danger to the survival of Christianity?

GG. Actually the United Church has just conducted a survey about this. The number of Christians is decreasing. We are now in a secular society and faith of any traditional kind is not an issue for many people. Those trends are not going to turn around all that much. Yet, I also do believe that Christianity will survive in a new form. One of the things I do is work with congregations and their mission in the local community, and how they can work with those of other denominations for the earth and to meet human needs.

PY- How do you explain that evangelical churches adhering to the infallibility of the Bible seem to be growing, while other churches are declining?

GG. My sense is that there is so much change and uncertainty today that just about everything now is up for grabs. Faith and theology are more open-ended. My sense is that people are looking for certainties in a time of uncertainty.

PY.- How do you view the phrase, "Everything is relative", as opposed to 'absolute"?

GG. I don't think there are literal, truths, but there is truth. It's not that anything goes. I think that our task is to keep trying to discern what God's will is, and the form and, the language can change as we go.

So I am saying that there are no ... well, there are absolutes. They are love and justice, but it's how we interpret that.

PY- Do you believe in a literal eternal hell?

GG.- Well I wouldn't personally, and most of the people I know in the United Church wouldn't, but some folks in some of our congregations would believe that.

PY- What about an eternal literal heaven?

GG. Hmmmm. Well, I think it's similar. We all have to interpret how we understand heaven.

PY I'm talking of heaven as a literal place.

GG Not a literal place, no. It wouldn't be for me. I believe "heaven" as I use that term, as being with God in whatever shape that is. But not a literal place.

PY A few months ago the theme in the United Church Observer was "spiritual healing". I was struck by the mixture, One paragraph would describe someone being prayed for in the name of Jesus, then in the next there would be someone supposedly receiving help through transcendental meditation, or "mother earth" religion.

Is it the intentional policy of the editorial board to feature any form of spirituality rather than spirituality through Jesus?

GG. The Observer is an independent organ, although there is lots of consultation back and forth between it and the Council. I suspect they were trying to raise the whole question of spiritual healing, which is something the United Church has not thought or talked about very much. There is a range of understanding of what it means. For many, spiritual healing would mean experiencing the presence of Christ in one's life and illness.

Others appreciate the feeling of connectiveness with the earth. In the United Church you can find almost every theological position that you might think of.

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